interviewwelcome to my thesis - blog versionIntroductionVignette #1CHAPTER 1: Talking about Taiji emotionally: 3 Case Studies & Yun-hûi[ch. 1] Kang-t'ae[ch. 1] Chae-tol - 쟈넷의 논문
…often do more than that, or less than that, or something else completely. In relation to the distinction of male from female bodies, social practices sometimes exaggerate (e.g. maternity clothes), sometimes deny (many employment practices), sometimes mythologize (computer games), sometimes complicate (‘third gender’ customs). So we cannot say that social arrangements routinely ‘express’ biological differences (Connell, 2003:10).
Affective play and alliances formed by youth in their everyday cultural life provided key biographical and social resources for alternative forms of identities. What was missing in the dominant form of “interpretive” subculture work was properly articulated analysis of the articulations among youth’s passion for particular favored objects, icons, and texts that formed their personal—potentially political—significance, as well as their different “affective economies” (Lee, 2002: 61).
Excerpt 1
Yh: Ah, when their second album came out, I was in the last year of high school so I was studying so serious. But, I, bought the tape because my boyfriend was really crazy about that. So I bought that. Soon after I bought that, we (with both hands gestures pushing away)…broke up. [Ah, you broke up.] Yes we broke up. So their second hit, always reminds me of the, the end of our love.
J: Of the break up, right.
Yh: Ya. So I, uh, uh. At that time I listened and listened to their hits, those songs. The first time I bought their album because of my boy-, ex-boyfriend, but, uh, after that, ah, I became…I became obsessed with it by myself and the melody, because, ah their second hit, had, uh, a new attempt, put their own message in their hits, and their message was totally different from, ah, the existing system of popular music. In the second album, there, there was one song, about the psychology of one person, ah, ah, addicted to, addicted to drugs. You know that song?
J: Which one? Ah
Yh: In Korea, the problem of drugs was not serious. But the word “drug”, ah! Just the word made teenagers crazy! (Laughs) Kind of ah, kind of ah, something cool, with, message We needed something serious, ah ah, some message in our life (laughs) so that song really appealed to me.
Excerpt 2
[This excerpt is preceded by Yun-hûi’s discussion of the song “Comeback Home”, the media frenzy around it, and how it caused some runaway kids to return home. She expressed dissatisfaction about this song and the media frenzy.]
Yh: So at that time I thought, if Seo Taiji wa Idûl do anything, it is seen as a good attempt so I didn’t like that at the time and I think, ah, I already became old enough, I changed my impression of them. So the next hit they declared they would stop their performance. I liked that. Because, at least, at first maybe they would come back and restart their performance, that ah, a kind of trick that many singers and actors use, so they didn’t come back, and that’s great. And each of them, went their own way. So, ah, after a couple years, I, I, became to realize their announcement was true, I (laughs) I liked Seo Taiji again (smiling). Because he was so frank, ah he, was enough self-confident. Many celebrities, celebrities don’t do that because they, they couldn’t risk their reputation but he did. He just, ah, got more into his music. So I, thought he knew what is important, and he can know, ah what he wants, and what he has to do. So, I liked him more and thought, ah, ah. A couple more years later, he really did come back, but I didn’t hate that he came back because it also was so natural. Maybe, ah, ah someone left their area, and he, ah, left for a long time, it is so hard to come back because he, he or she they can’t be sure of their success or not, so it was not, it wasn’t an easy decision but he did, and he, ah, came back and introduced his new attempt at performing music. And he just wanted to show his, ah, his own musical work.
Excerpt 3
Yh: This was during high school. I remember the melody was so cool. The way, ah, for Seo Taiji to sing, was so different, he sang with rapping, it was the first attempt in the mainstream. Ya. It was all so cool. All the boys and girls imitated that way! Like this (She mimics a rapper, with hand gestures and smiles afterward and laughs). Ahhh! And their message was so philosophical. […] (She tries to translate a few lines of the lyrics into English as she listens). Very cool rhythm and melody, they mix very philosophical lyrics. So, ah, ah, there is no way Seo Taiji wasn’t cool. They, yes. So. Think about this! Many Korean songs just say, (she starts singing, “I love you” etc in Korean) all singers sing, have songs about love and similar things, but one day, three boys appear and sing, ah totally different kinds of things, and their melody and rhythm lyrics were totally different, and that was not just great but very cool.
Excerpt 4
J: You will probably remember forever right?
Yh: Ya! (Laughs) It’s so surprising! We laugh. She continues to move her body to the beat and she shows lots of energy) It’s a sort of love song, but but different. So, ah, it’s yes. Last time I told, when this album came out, ah I had just broken-up with my boyfriend and, you know every teenager or even older people, think their love is special. But this song is, appropriate for my special love because it is was so special (laughs) special love song. (She laughs a little) … This part (the guitar solo) I’m always touched by it. Yes this melody, it’s a little bit similar to rock, hmm, very ah, ah ah similar, like Western music but, he used t’aep’yŏngso, and it’s an an amazing mixture (smiles).
Excerpt 5
Yh: I always think about that (masculinity). Masculinity is a question of, ah, power, ah men’s power and desire for power. Based on their own confirmation of self. [oh ok] That’s my definition, so that’s why I think of the concept of masculinity not only as characteristics of some men such as manly voice or muscular body and uh, uh… But also as ah, ah…yes! Even in softness of guys, I think there is masculinity. There are many questions. For example, I read your term paper, and I, I questioned that, whether the male ballad singers’ voice, ah, ah, question of softness, if they are free from masculinity. In my : perspective, I don’t think so. Because … especially in lyrics, there are also the philosophy of love, from guy’s, and ah, some, ah, characteristics, characters of men in situations—love or …and actually because this society is, this society is ahh, patriarchal, so all guys cannot break free from masculinity. Because masculinity has meant men’s, ah, a mandate for being a man. But of course I have want to have some masculinity of my own. So that’s why I think masculinity is the confirmation or desire about power.
Excerpt 6
J: So, this question, what kind of guys do you like?
Yh: Silent!
J: What? Talented?
Yh: Silent.
J: Mute? (Jokingly)
Yh: Ya, mute! […] Silent and … silent and ah, he has, he has something he can concentrate on. Especially I prefer something, artistic work but I don’t want poor artistic, because I would be stuck with supporting that kind of boyfriend. I don’t want that anymore! They have to take care of themselves, and I take care of … myself. And we can, we can, ah, give and take. No one-way street, or one-way street, I don’t want that[…] Especially I can’t stand guys, ah, who are not even my boyfriend, who, ah, talk about, talk about feminism or gender issues, uh, very firm in their perspective. [Oh ya]. Um they had better be silent about that kind of issues and they should try to support the people who, who ah, who really have a problem, that’s women. So silent is, uh … [or listening] Ya. It is a good attitude especially for a guy. J: Ya being a really good listener and a learner is very important for me.
Yh: Otherwise I can’t hear any love from my boyfriend. […] How about your boyfriend? Silent?
J: Oh he’s not silent, but he is a very good, ah. He’s a very good listener and he likes to learn from other people. [Ah! That’s] […] He is very very good at listening and learning from other people so I like, I like that about him and I always tell him that. [Right] When he, sometimes he doesn’t understand why I like him, because he still has, his family is very traditional and [oh] ya so he still thinks that, that I should like somebody who is, really, really gonna make lots of money or (we laugh) you know (we laugh) so! Or somebody who knows a lot, right? Or somebody who, but I like people who like to learn.
Yh: me too!
Excerpt 7
Yh: I don’t want to categorize instrument or styles of songs as manly or masculinity, but ah, that’s true. [Oh!] For example I don’t feel the, ah rap songs. [Rap?] yes rap. I always feel rap is so manly. [Ok]. Think about this, in the case of women, we don’t speak in that kind of style. We talk about more interactively [ah!] but there, there they speak one way, in one direction and the beat is very strong […].
J: Hayŏga. I don’t know about this song. I have confused opinions, or no opinions at all.
(We are listening together over headphones)
Yh: Yes this kind of beat is ah, considered manly.
J: Considered manly by you or by other people?
Yh: By others including me
J: Including you. Even though you don’t like, you feel uncomfortable to categorize
Yh: No! [Oh!] But the difference is ah, even though this ah, was categorized manly in the past, the difference in my uh, generation, don’t want to ah, fall in love with guys who make this kind of beat [oh ok]. We said we want to, uh, make this, uh kind of beat by ourselves. Yes. I wanted and still Yh: want this kind of beat to be mine, not by, not be my boyfriends. […]
(We are listening to the song “Victim” release 2004. Yun-hûi listens carefully without much expression or movement. She doesn’t seem to enjoy it).
J: This is the same as the one before (“Tank”), or a little bit different?
Yh: Little bit different. But I … I found I, uh, I consider rock band music ah, ah, manly. [Ok]. Usually, usually, so I, I’m missing Courtney Love. I miss Courtney Love, because, she is, uh, she leads a rock band. Actually if I, ah, listened, participated in concert uh, of, a female band, I really become crazy, because [Crazy good, or crazy bad?] Good! [Oh ok] but, ah…
J: But only for a female rock group.
Yh: Not only female but prefer female.
J: Ok. So you don’t like this because
Yh: Because it’s violent and it’s too strong. I don’t want men to express, uh, strength. [Ah] I don’t like that. I want them to keep silent and, ah, not expressing strength. [Right]. Because even though they don’t express their strength they are strong enough because this society is based on, ah, patriarchy, so they need to be silent and calm until both genders become equal.
Yh: … I think I, I think I say something too, ah too ah… educational?
Lectural?
J: Ah, too intellectual, too scholarly?
Yh: No no.
J: What do you mean?
Yh: Educational?
J: Oh you mean trying to teach people?
Yh: Ya! [Oh!] So that’s why I don’t like talking about feminism anymore.
J: You feel like you are lecturing people
Yh: Yes, right. Uncomfortable
J: Yes I know that feeling… that’s ok, I don’t think you’re lecturing me.
Yh: (Laughs a little).
In the political economy of music, Faye [Wong] challenges, distorts and transforms the prevailing market logic, and by that twisting, she further commodifies her image and her music while at the same time enhancing her cultural capital. The largely unintended outcome of her insistent efforts to craft an image at odds with institutional and cultural conventions is that Faye's ambitions seem to resonate with fans who are negotiating tensions between their own public personae and the traditional expectations of women in Chinese societies…[The richness of the Faye phenomenon furthermore] engenders multiple appropriations of Faye, which also open possibilities for other movements, such as queer and masculine struggles (Chow, 1998) (Curtin, and Fung, 2002: 286).
Kang-t’ae revealed this concern most tellingly in his anger directed at his uncle’s stereotyping of him, an anger combined with frustration at being typecast as a certain type of man because he comes from an essentially poor and uneducated family. Abelmann (2002) paid close attention to the prevalence of this type of talk among the women in her study and how this acted in forming how they conceive of themselves. Abelmann writes "...it is apparent that all of the women in this book are keenly aware of the ways in which they can be seen as one type or another. Most important here is that "one type or another" refers not generally to one type of person, but specifically to one type of gendered person, one type of "woman" (2002: 242). In such as way, the struggles in Kang-t’ae’s talk reveal similar concerns but over another type of gendered person, a type of man. This is especially evident in example 1 where his struggles were expressed as much in his angry upset voice, pacing, and arm waving as in his choice of words. Lines such as ‘[my relatives think] “A man has to be extroverted and talkative to be successful” indicate that he conceives that his relatives think a man, as one specific type of gendered person and not simply one type of person, needs to act a certain way. Kang-t’ae’s emotion in both excerpts attests that this struggle is not merely an intellectual one, but something with which he is deeply engaged and which matters considerably to him.
Excerpt 1
After an evening class at his university, Kang-t’ae came home and began chatting, by typing, over msn messenger with his “Rich Uncle”, the term we used to refer to his only middle class and university or college educated relative. His uncle was living for the year in the United States and had been chatting with Kang-t’ae a few times earlier to arrange a sight seeing trip up to Canada. Kang-t’ae didn’t know his uncle very well. There was a lot at stake in communicating well with this uncle. First Kang-t’ae thought his uncle would like me, and as a result of Rich Uncle’s high status in the family—being educated, middleclass and so on—this would help me to be accepted by his family. Secondly, Kang-t’ae was very proud of becoming much more educated and intellectually curious while in Canada—he had been enthusiastically reading up on international and domestic issues on a daily basis for example. It was important to him to show Rich Uncle how he had improved himself. Because his Rich Uncle was educated and had traveled to other countries, Kang-t’ae had presumed that Rich Uncle would be more open-minded than his other relatives, but he had been mistaken. During their chatting this particular evening, Kang-t’ae started swearing loudly and started hitting the computer table with his fist. This behaviour was extremely unusual for him. After the chatting, I needed to know why he had been so angry. He said he was upset that his uncle had stereotyped him as ignorant and incompetent. He said he was very angry and hurt that his uncle would say such things and think of him in such a stereotypical way.
Kt: 'My uncle knows this much (shows a cm with his fingers) about me and then stereotypes this much (shows wide distance with outstretched arms) about me.'
(Kang-t’ae continued angrily expressing how his family members think there is only one good way for a man to live, a sentiment he had expressed a number of times before).
Kt: ‘(My relatives think/say) “If someone does this, he is good and will have a successful life.” For example, “a man should be able to drink well/a lot” [I said ‘yes but your father doesn't drink much’] Yes but the other family members... (They say/think) “A man has to be extroverted and talkative to be successful.” I'm not extroverted! More than before, but not really. They should... why can't they know that each person has good points, their own individual way to be, their own characteristics! I am more introverted, I'm sensitive and emotional, this can be good. Why do they not understand that individual characteristics are important? I am more educated then them! They are not educated. Why do they judge me?!'
He was very angry and frustrated and had some tears in his eyes after speaking this last line and quickly left the room I was in. The next day he said he had also been upset about school, which had made him extra upset. But at that time, his anger, frustration and sadness was heartfelt and serious.
Excerpt 2
One evening after our dinner, Kang-t’ae started talking about his cousin (a male cousin a little younger than him with whom he is very close). He seemed frustrated and a little annoyed and disappointed. A few days earlier, he had talked and argued with his cousin late into the night at our apartment over beer and some tequila―like many Korean men, they communicate best while drinking. At this point in the year, the two were not getting along so well, partly because the three of us living together in a one-bedroom apartment was proving too stressful. This evening Kang-t’ae, like he had at other times, criticized his cousin in gendered terms saying he a was “a little macho” (negative connotation)―not listening, not thinking critically, not being flexible, just reacting and getting angry. Kang-t’ae was talking about his cousin when all of a sudden he brought up Seo Taiji:
Kt: ‘Seo Taiji is like me. He appears very weak but in fact he is very strong. I am like that. It makes me angry when people…my relatives [your uncle?] yes and others, say I am weak. But I am not. For example they think that arm wrestling shows strength. But I can run further, longer than many people. Endurance is strength. In fact women are stronger than men. Auschwitz—women lasted longer than men, endurance and more fat. We [men] are just muscle and bone. It annoys me that Sûng-mo (his cousin) doesn’t agree with me about that [that women can be stronger than men]. He doesn’t listen. I am like Taiji. Independent spirit and care about different issues…since I came to Canada. Also we care about the innocence of childhood. I also had a pure mind in childhood, like him. I didn’t know about how awful society is. I wasn’t critical. Now I think society is shit. So much shit.’
[He ended this topic by briefly mentioning how the public libraries in Korea are, in his mind, terrible and his plan to try to get his university in Seoul to open its reading rooms to the public, so that all people—old, poor etc--can have access to reading books].
[t]he voice of one group may be authoritative and hegemonic, supporting other voices, but in any society, there are counter-hegemonic voices that threaten to weaken and subvert more authoritative ones… For Bakhtin, then, language is “heteroglossic,” comprised of a combination of social languages, some of which are engaged in opposition and struggle (Bakhtin, 1981 in Skinner et al, 2001).
Excerpt #1
Ct: (When I was) seven, Seo Taiji was very popular for entire Korea. Basically in all sections. I, actually, was on TV [Oh!]. (He laughs, smiling) I did a … what’s it called . . . Celebrity, what’s it called [I dunno]. Cover performance?
J: Oh you mean you were on TV acting like Seo Taiji?
Ct: Yes! (He smiles a lot). My mom bought me the same clothing, and taught me how to dance exactly the same way so I was on TV for that. And (laughs) it was really exciting. (Smiling). All of my albums, my father bought me. [Oh!] Ya. And, every time he got a new album, after he went to work, he brought me the album. That cycle, he (Taiji) was hiding and then come, back, hiding and then come back [right]…Ya. So for my second album, all of my cousins and my friends also liked Seo Taiji so, but 3rd album was kind of a changing point, my friends kind of didn’t like the rock parts, and the topics that he dealt with in this album were kind of heavy for grade 2-3 students (laughs, big smile) but I still liked it. And the 4th album was the biggest shock, shock for me. First his appearance had changed, longer hair, with weird sunglasses I didn’t realize it was him when I first saw him on the comeback home show. [Ah]. It was the Come Back Home album it was the first time that I heard (laughs, big smile) gangster music. Yes, it was very so (looks amazed. Shaking his head a bit) … Yes.
J: When were you on television?
Ct: When I was 7. First album. (Big smile, laughing)
J: So your parents liked him.
Ct: Yes. My parents actually totally supported me and even went farther, like Seo Taiji mania, ya. So. …
J: Your parents would have been in their 30s?
Ct: Ya. And. There are too many things to tell you !! (Laughs, big smile).
J: Yes (smile).
Ct: it’s like 13, 14 years of experiences and [I know!][…] Ya that’s ah… (thinking carefully). There are too many aspects, ah, too many stories, to many, ah, ideas, that I have about his music! (Big smile).
Excerpt #2
Ct: There are a few reasons (why I like him so much) but the reasons have been changed. First he was just shocking and interesting. Second was, he was just really popular, with his second album, he was really popular so [with everybody] yes with everybody, so it was more like follow the masses. [Right]. And third album, people started to leave, him. I was more like, more like intrigued. I dunno. I dunno why but, at the age of 10, I was thinking about the problem of the Korean education system (big smile, we laugh together). I dunno, with his music, somehow he taught me, through his music those issues are important. (Smiles). So I started to think about the reunification of North and South Korea, and other problems, ya. And, after that, I also liked, his marketing strategy, not only his music. He is really skilled at, when to come on strong, and, … when to pull back. Maybe also that’s why I want to go into business. [Oh!]
J: So through his songs, even at a young age, you became interested in social issues, from his songs.
Ct: Yes…
J: What kind of marketing do you want to do. Do you want to work in the entertainment field, or not marketing, but business?
Ct: I’m not sure now but I’m more interested in like, media and entertainment, advertising, stuff like that.
Excerpt #3
We are listening to the album Live Wire (2004)
Ct: Number 9 and 12 connect really well. [Number 9 and number 12 connect really well?] Yes. When we play them, they are exactly the same way. He builds them bit by bit. How can I say? When I work, I try to do, I try to, this type of art, or something I’m working on. [Ya]. Even though I’m doing a little homework, I try be perfect on my work. So he makes sure all of his songs are perfect. He’s a perfectionist [Yes]. And I try to follow that characteristic of Seo Taiji, perfectionist. Everything I make I want to make it very good quality. I don’t really have any relationship with other manias. In Canada. I am more solitary, as I also was before (smiles, I laugh a little). But after ah, his website was built, I did many mania activities. Now I am doing ah, ah, developing a Seo Taiji copy band [oh, cover band]. Yes, cover band. So that’s what I’m going to do this summer.
Excerpt 4
We are listening to the Live Wire album (2004) again
Ct: Victim is about more like gender issues. (Laughs points to track 3, “Nothing”) this one is interesting, it’s a bridge [this one like an introduction to “Victim”]. Yes. Interview some people on the street. And it’s about a Korean man. He is a Korean man (the man talking). He says… he says, “what about, ah, women’s rights in Korea, they already have lots of rights.” But on the next track, he Seo Taiji kind of counter argues [ah] the, that they don’t have, enough rights. Right? [Uhuh] (Talking very excited and interested in this, bright eyes, looking right at me). So ah… I don’t know for your essay are you looking at this kind of gender issues, discrimination?
J: For one part [yes] I am. I am looking at this song (I point to Victim) [ya]. But I am also interested in the music, the sound of the music, and issues of gender, not just the lyrics. [Yes]. Like, style and sound, and the sounds of voices. [Yes].
Ct: It is really hard to get what he is saying in it … the lyrics are not, ah straight [yes]. Even for Korean people we have to think about it, interpret.